I afraid that California state government long ago dispensed with any notion of being subject to the United States Constitution.

The State's senators (elected by the people), Diane Feinstein and Kamala Harris, have long championed leftist thinking... their position on individual rights of this nature is overwhelmingly clear...the State is King.

Same goes for the San Francisco-based Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.

Edit: As far as wisdom of the CA coronavirus edicts, they do seem to be faring a lot better than NY. That needs to be at least considered. Magazineman makes a good point in his post below. I cannot disagree that one should look at all dimensions. Personally, I'm playing it safe, staying at home; albeit this is by choice rather than government edict.

But as far as focusing on Constitutional rights, those were long ago given a thumbs-down by the State of California. CA operates under the laws of the Democratic Party and they'll find ways to convolute the U.S. Constitution so as to match the Dem Party platform. And the Ninth Circuit Court can usually be relied upon to lend its support.

 

I afraid that California state government long ago dispensed with any notion of being subject to the United States Constitution.

The State's senators (elected by the people), Diane Feinstein and Kamala Harris, have long championed leftist thinking... their position on individual rights of this nature is overwhelmingly clear...the State is King.

Same goes for the San Francisco-based Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.

Edit: As far as wisdom of the CA coronavirus edicts, they do seem to be faring a lot better than NY. That needs to be at least considered. Magazineman makes a good point in his post below. I cannot disagree that one should look at all dimensions. Personally, I'm playing it safe, staying at home; albeit this is by choice rather than government edict.

But as far as focusing on Constitutional rights, those were long ago given a thumbs-down by the State of California. CA operates under the laws of the Democratic Party and they'll find ways to destroy the U.S. Constitution so as to match the Dem Party platform. And the Ninth Circuit Court can usually be relied upon to lend its support.

Fixed it for everyone..

 

Yes, I see the constitutional problem. And I see the need for this too.

Also note that they don't want you to CATCH it, and pass it on to other innocents, either. So it's not just a "presumed guilty / sick" situation at all. It's both.

There's no easy answers.

 

You run the risk of being infected with the virus if you leave home! Stay at home, unless you are low on food, prescriptions or sanitary supplies. This won't last a long time, especially if you (and others) comply with this temporary restriction.

Your compliance is voluntary, not mandatory. You can venture out if you want, but there's not much to do out there, with restaurants, most retailers, and all sports competition and entertainment shut down.

Stay home, be safe - and maybe do some home repairs & maintenance that you don't usually have time for.

 

I am a deplorable, and I ain’t carrying no Covid Card, because I am too busy clinging to my guns and religion.

 

Believe it or not, there is a discussion of issuing "Covid 19 Immunity Cards" aka go-to-work ID card to those that have tested positive to Covid 19 antibodies (immunity), and test negative to shedding Covid 19 virus.

"Your papers, please"!:

People who recover from coronavirus could be given government-issued immunity cards in the future, National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases director Anthony Fauci said Friday.

Fauci told CNN's New Day that the Trump administration is considering giving out certificates showing a person has previously had coronavirus and recovered, which could help reduce transmission as people return to work in the coming months.

Hah... and people thought we had a right to "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"! Well not any more without government permission you don't.

 

+1911 GP:rock:

Hope you're doing well, at least as well as possible, during these difficult days.

 

The joke here is their motto of "my body my choice"

 

Good one

 

It’s not guilty vs innocent.

What’s the alternative? Would people accept the consequences of not only getting sick, but potentially dying? Would they be ok with causing someone else’s illness or death?

Or conversely, if you went to a crowded place and then found out the next week that everyone where you were the week before had a very contagious disease. How would it feel if nobody told you? The ‘cure’ had to be given day#2, and you got told day#7.

Public safety, dictates people be protected. Personally, I’d rather be free at home than getting sick from some stranger.

 

"If it saves just one life....."

Everyone knows this is out there. Allow people the freedom to manage their own risk....

To do otherwise, to blatantly ignore the constraints placed on government by the Constitution- regardless of the reason, is to disregard it, and is beyond the pale.
Either you fully support the Constitution, ALL of it, ALWAYS, or you do not....

 

Broken record........but let’s hear your idea were you in charge?

 

Broken record........but let’s hear your idea we’re you in charge?

I doubt you’ll get one, beyond the ‘all or nothing’ stance.

Unfortunately, these are the people who will blame everyone else (and possibly litigate) should they or a loved one gets sick or worse.

 

We have now surpassed Italy to become Number 1 in Covid deaths.

That is if China's numbers are legit. But if not, we are solidly in #2 position.

Don't worry, we may become the Undisputed Death Champs soon enough.

Time to get your giant #1 foam fingers out of your sports swag bag.

 

We are not, however, #1 in deaths per capita, which is the only metric that makes sense.

The Chicoms have lied since the beginning, why would anyone trust them? I am guessing that their deaths are in the tens of millions.

 

The thing that scares me the most.

Is presumed authority. Good, bad, or otherwise. It appears that these lockdowns, distancing, other wise measures to hopefully prevent the spread of this bug. That they are indeed having a positive influence.

This being the case. Why would people insofar as they are able to do so, not attempt to adhere to these practices at least for the interim? Probably no real good one size fits all explanation for this.

However when government officials, state, local, or federal just presume to have the authority to order things that signed legislation has not provided for. Additionally to enforce it with punitive police actions. I will just let it suffice to say that I have issues with this.

I might sum it up with a short sentence. This being that poor planning on their part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on my part.

My wife and I did not decide to isolate ourselves due to what anyone told us. We got the idea from just reading the writing on the wall. Subsequently our erstwhile racist Governor, of a very questionable background. He has encouraged us to do what we have been doing already. Not too surprisingly this appears to be the pragmatic route going forward, at least in the interim. I am much more confidant in the advice that I got from my primary care physician today. His recommendation was not surprisingly to continue with quarantine. This man has been my primary care physician for over two decades and I have a great deal of respect for his opinions.

Should our suspect governor attempt to force my wife and I to do things that I do not see as being beneficial. There will be push back. Not the first time we have been down this road with the Governor this year here in the Commonwealth.

 

All I'm saying is that healthy people aren't falling over and dying. There are 8 billion of us. I'm sure there are some that will die eventually due to the flu no matter how far apart we are.
We are closing businesses and schools and destroying the economy to protect the weak.
Lets say all the records for every gun owner were lost and the background check system failed. So Uncle Sam decides to tell every gun owner that they are a felon and we must surrender our guns. There is no record of criminal history as there are no tests to prove you don't have CV9. Therefore, you are guilty, and its the safest way to handle the situation right? This can't be about safety. The CDC, the WHO and the Whitehouse among many other organizations would have reported consistent facts during the onset of the pandemic. No one was on the same page with the facts, if they don't know, don't assume if it's SO deadly. Don't make inaccurate recommendations to the public. Never seemed that serious. See how many COVID19 deaths were reported in Beijing for example.
Anyone notice how no one was/is on the same page with the facts? Fear. They need support just like after 9/11 to go after the CCP. It's stupid. Kill the economy to perpetuate aggression towards China.
CV9 is just another tool for provocation. Rant done

 

There is a meritorious debate, with strong, deeply held sentiments on both sides, as to whether or not governments -- primarily the U.S. with our Constitution -- have rightful authority to mandate restrictions on freedoms of movement or congregation, so as to minimize community exposures (including impacts on the "persons the first person meets a few days later").

And there are peripheral debates as well, including beliefs that coronavirus presents minimal or no risk to young people; and that others in any risk group should be solely responsible -- i.e., it's totally "on them" -- for separating themselves from, to get out of the way of, those who are not in a risk group. IOW, it's exclusively their problem, no one else's.

I've decided not to go whole hog in one direction or the other in this/these debates, because I'm not convinced that there's a really clear best answer. I suspect any best answer does not lay at an extreme end of the spectrum. Freedom and following of the Constitution is critical, of course, as well understood by any resolute supporter of 2A rights. But reckless behavior, which leads quite predictably to at least some deaths of others, is also not so endorsed by the Constitution (IMHO). But I will say that very meritorious arguments have been made in both directions. Both merit a lot of attention and words of warning on either side need to be taken seriously; not dismissed out of hand or trivialized.

If I'm obligated to go in one direction or the other as advocating a prescription for others (I've already decided safeguards for myself, so that's a done deal), I've decided I'm going with President Trump. That is not so much a blind following (again, I've already chosen for myself); instead, it is more a combination of practicality, support for the President I voted for -- and will vote for again, and trust that he will decide better than any Dem and/or media adversary. And he is President and Commander in Chief... including mine.

 

https://www.ncsl.org/research/health/public-health-chart.aspx

Is this the Constitution you folks studied....or are there two?

 

No shortage of posturing and ineptitude in many cases.

But insofar as ordering people to do this and that in the places that are doing it. They should at least be able to do this within the framework of existing law. Most places already have laws in place such as creating a public nuisance laws, reckless endangerment laws etc. These could readily be used to enforce certain quarantine measures. A much more pragmatic approach than just telling people "you better do this or we will send the mean meanies after you." All of these Governor's have legal counsel (paid by us). They have no excuse.

The constitutionality of such laws can be debated forever. But they are on the books and currently enforceable.

 

But insofar as ordering people to do this and that in the places that are doing it. They should at least be able to do this within the framework of existing law. Most places already have laws in place such as creating a public nuisance laws, reckless endangerment laws etc. These could readily be used to enforce certain quarantine measures. A much more pragmatic approach than just telling people "you better do this or we will send the mean meanies after you." All of these Governor's have legal counsel (paid by us). They have no excuse.

The constitutionality of such laws can be debated forever. But they are on the books and currently enforceable.

The same laws you cite can, with equal ease, be applied to the 2A....

Let's break one on down.... reckless endangerment.

You are suggesting that if I have no indicators or risk factors for COVID, my presence in a public place is "endangering" others. One could as easily suggest that you carrying a gun in a public place "endangers" otbers.... Both examples are equally flawed- for such a change to hold, the action has to pose a direct risk to others. Unless the State can PROVE tha one is positive, they cannot prove a danger to others....

Playing connect the dots, to make thw law mean what you want it to, rather than what it DOES mean, is th3 tactic of the leftist activist and judge.

Ultimately, ANY argument in support of mandatory stay home orders, in violation of the Constitution., can be applied with the same legitimacy to the 2A....

Either the Constitution is the law of the land, or its meaningless. There is no clause that permits "temporary " denial of rights on a wide scale...

 

Like I said.

The constitutionality of these laws can be debated. And can they be abused? Most assuredly they can, and have been any number of times.

But the fact is that there are precedents and case law that lends them at least the appearance of being proper and correct, not to mention legal at least inasmuch as it is codified law, constitutional or not.

I merely propose that this would be a much more professional and ethical manner to achieve the sought after end. But given that while the country was founded by statesmen. Today it is largely run by politicians. Therefore instead of leadership, we get mismanagement, grandstanding and rhetoric.

 

I suspect that we're not likely to settle these big picture, Constitutionally centered questions...the differences of opinion are too great. And even if we could among ourselves, the rest of the Country would pay us no mind.

But it is good to have these issues in our minds and to give some thought as to where we individually stand and why. A big part of American citizenship is -- or at least should be -- awareness of these types of issues and an understanding of what our Country is all about. And fulfilling our civic duties -- obviously including election day -- on the basis of being informed and hopefully capable of making judicious decisions.

If we fail to do this, then we're that much closer to becoming a nanny state.

For all of these reasons, this has been a good discussion/debate. Those who support more government controls on assembly, congregation, closing "non-essential" businesses, etc., to combat this virus should pay heed to the dangers of such precedents. This is no small matter. While not identical, it's also not wholly dissimilar from leftists encroachments on 2A rights. And pretty close to everyone here very strongly supports these 2A rights.

But the Constitution is also about permitting life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness for all; not just those who believe the virus poses no big risk to them personally. And there seems justification for the government to step in (on behalf of this Constitutional principle) when deaths start to accumulate in the thousands due to exponential rates of disease spread traceable mostly to more mobile persons who travel from place to place (including China, Italy, etc.). The people dying from this disease mostly are not those who brought the disease into this Country. They didn't ask for this. They didn't want someone else to bring this disease into their community. And they didn't bring it in. And those with pre-existing conditions and/or advanced age are still American citizens, entitled to their own Constitutional rights. Those who believe otherwise, or think that it's time for those in risk groups to pass away (if contracting the virus from a chain of individuals paying no heed to their role in transmission of the disease) as in a fitest of the fit evolutionary theory, also should do some soul searching.

To conclude this post on a positive note, I have every confidence that President Trump will make far better decisions to balance the relevant considerations (and there are many) than any of those Dems and their leftists media pals who are currently taking cheap shots at him.

 

Lots of Americans die every day. Covid 19 is still way down on the list published by the CDC. Way more are dying of heart disease, cancer, car accidents, and the seasonal flu. I don't understand the hysteria. Even if Covid 19 was more dangerous, life is risky. None of us get out alive. There are no guarantees in life, other than dying.

My entire adult life has been about managing risk, meaning my own neck. Flying fighters off of carriers was very risky. Others who were combatants in the Military also had to manage risk. Flying airliners wasn't nearly as risky although Commercial piloting is still listed as one of the more dangerous occupations. Police have to manage risk. Lumberjacks, Commercial Fisherman, and Construction Workers all manage risk. A Finance Manager who is managing risk isn't risking his own neck.

I believe how we respond to the Covid 19 "crisis" is partially determined by our own aversion to risk. For me, possibly catching an illness where 98-99% of those who contract it will not die, and that's only if we get the illness in the first place, is not a big risk. Walking in a big city at night is riskier. Driving is riskier. Walking my dog is riskier. Going into a hospital and possibly catching C-Diff or some other bacterial infection is riskier. Why are we shutting down the country, destroying people's savings, taking their jobs, and tanking our economy for something less risky than bad weather, highway driving, and working on the bad side of town?

 

Two sides of the coin...Proes and cons...No easy answer...Rights are extremely important, but so is doing one's part to help in a situation like we are in. And please, spare me the BS that it is setting precedents for gun-grabbing. Not even a demented lefty lawyer would try using stuff that went on in a pendemic as a basis/precedent for gun grabbing. It would be laughed out in court. It does not logically follow that all "public-safety/health" actions are relevant to each other.

Lets start here: I know there have been incidents reported where cops have broken up crowds of people congregating. So what.

But does anyone have knowledge of someone being arrested for being outside in a non- critical activity? (Honest Q, I don't know the answer).

Personally, I never thought a half ass quarantine was the way to go. Either lock down the entire country for 30 days, or better yet, give everyone masks and gloves to wear in public and let life go on. But given we do have a half-ass quarantine, I want to do my part. I don't feel my rights are threatened, rather I feel it is my duty to help the Commander-in-Chief (a Republican President who has done so much for America) who has made the final call on this, just like I felt it was my duty to serve my country as a young man in the USN.

The sooner we get the younger folks out of my face (in the food stores in what use to be 8:00AM on a work-day) and back to work - the better. LOL

 

 

I laughed at first and then it sank in.
Not so funny now is it...

 

When we were discussing Covid last month many guys here were saying that the numbers we were seeing in Italy couldn't possibly happen here in the US. Based on "because Italian medicine sucks, more folks there are old, we are the best in the world" rationale.

My opinion differed from that. Still does.

Because here we are, worse than Italy.

So now I'm hearing both "Well....... it's Per Capita that matters" and "China probably had TENS OF MILLIONS of deaths"

So the criteria is getting shifted, & absurd, unsupported numbers invented, to support earlier faulty positions. (note that on Per Capita, that China has nearly 1.4 Billion people to our 327M)

Point is that this IS a very bad situation.

Not sure what it would take for people to admit that their initial "no big deal" assessments were incorrect.

 

The Institute that leads the fight against the cancer I and many others are dealing with, which makes us a double and triple risk for CV9, sent this out today as part of a Mayo Clinic report on CV9. I cut and paste this piece of Q&A as I think it might help you (and possible others). A lot of good nuggets of advise in there.

What do I do if I can’t stop
worrying about COVID-19?
If worry becomes disruptive, try to:
■ Limit exposure to news media. It’s
important to stay up to date, but there’s
no need to follow the news constantly
or stay up late to monitor news.
■ When you do look at news, be sure
to seek out reputable sources.
■ Connect with friends and family for
support via social media or a phone.
■ Meditate, stretch or practice deep
breathing.
■ Try to stay optimistic.
■ Eat a healthy diet.
■ Get some exercise. In some places,
it’s OK to go outside for a walk or to
engage in other outdoor exercise as
long as you maintain a safe distance.
■ Avoid using drugs or alcohol to cope.
■ Use your moral compass or spiritual life for support.
■ Remind yourself that strong feelings
will fade.
Contact your health care provider
if you experience:
■ Difficulty sleeping
■ Changes in eating patterns
■ Difficulty concentrating on normal
or daily tasks
■ Feelings of helplessness, hopelessness, prolonged sadness or overwhelming worry
Will this

 

The first reported Covid19 death was on March 29th. We are now at about 25,000 deaths in the U.S. in one and a half months.

I wonder what the death toll would be had the precautions being discussed here not been put in place.

 

I think the charts/data provided earlier by President Trump and his supporting team (when he reluctantly concluded that things couldn't return to normal for the Easter weekend) provides a pretty good clue.

Similar to what I think you're suggesting, those projected numbers, without precautions, were exponentially higher. If such were not the case, there's little doubt in my mind that President Trump would have said let's get back to normalcy.

Differences -- adjusted to a comparable x-per-100,000 -- between NYC and San Francisco also provide a clue. (Not that I have any positive overall opinion about local/state government, etc., in these centers of leftism).

 

Dude, funny, but I'm not overly worried. No elevated heart rates here.

No point in stressing over things you cannot control. I'm just taking the steps I can, same as most folks.

 

Not really meant to be funny, it is good stuff, but if you see some of the "humor" in it that is good too.

 

^^^
^^^
^^^

If I lived where our friend magazineman lived, and considering other details he's shared over time, I think I'd also be pretty calm over current concerns.

And I think that applies to many of us here.

We're pretty even-keeled individuals, able to deal with what life has dealt out; on average, we're among those who've done o.k. in life, each in our own way and/ or endeavors. All of which creates a certain level of confidence.

We still have our opinions though.

 

In other news we are down substantially in overall deaths per day vs last year.....

 

Our country was set up to be one providing the maximum possible freedom to the populace. The flip side of that is the maximum possible personal responsibility and self-regulation.

The Surgeon General, himself black, pointed out that the black community was being hard hit by the Wuhan virus. He urged that group to improve their personal health practices--and was, of course, immediately attacked by a woke Leftist journalist (also black).

In general, the Left has attacked any remedy that can be personally administered without having to resort to the Medical Establishment: vitamins, quinine, zinc, etc. They want us dumbed down, hopeless, and dependent on them. That is their malignant aim.

I have to come down on the side of the original intent of the Founding Fathers. Virtually everyone who has died of the Wuhan virus has had underlying health conditions--just as with "normal" flu seasons.

No doubt helped by social distancing and good masks, the Wuhan virus death toll has been much lower than a normal flu season, and it has apparently already peaked, overall. Despite all the over-the-top scary projections given about what would "inevitably" happen.

I believe there is a very viable middle ground that can be reached, wherein businesses stay open and people take the individual responsibility to mask up, just as is common practice in parts of Asia. Local businesses can even require their customers to mask up; to practice social distancing in the store; to limit the number of patrons inside at any one time; etc.

On the individual level, people are responsible for their own health. Most health problems can be avoided, fixed or greatly improved by paying attention to what you put in your body. I am not saying, repeat not saying, every illness or condition. Most. For example, obesity is one of the indicators for who will die from this virus, because it is also a good indicator for general health (or rather lack of health). The great majority of people who are obese got that way by shoving too much junk food, comfort food and/or booze into themselves. The USA is well known to have the highest obesity level in the world. Smoking ain't a good idea either. As we all know, but too many still do.

You want to make poor health choices, go ahead, it's your life.
You want to self-isolate, possibly lose your job in the process, go ahead.
Just don't expect the whole country to have to deal with your personal decisions.

In other words, keep the regulation down at the lowest level, and minimally invasive. Everyone goes to work, health is still protected. There are no guarantees in life; all we can do is try to improve the odds. Being too risk-averse is just as bad an idea for real living as being too reckless.

Individual responsibility. Decisions made by local businesses. The whole country does not need to be shut down to deal with something like this. The media has ginned up a panic, and they were only able to do so because a large portion of the population has weak if any critical thinking skills.